CCC Announcement: Age Limit

By **Riven_**. 15/08/10, 08:28 am

Hey guys,

After much deliberation, the Club Leaders have decided to put an age limit (up until 30) on the Christchurch Cosplay Club.
We have received concerns that in a club where the majority of members are teenagers, it is inappropriate for much older people to attend Club events. Many feel that parents would not allow their teens to attend events if they were aware much older people were attending. Its a decision that needs to be made for the future of the Cosplay club, as this is an important time for us as we are growing fast and the majority of members are young teens.

This rule is in effect of all Club events. For events that are run by other members (in the Christchurch Cosplayers forum) the age limit will be set by the organiser, so please respect and abide by the rules they put in place. If you have a query, feel free to take it up with the organiser directly.

Some of you may feel that this decision is very sudden, or has been without member consultation. This is not the case. We mods have been debating this issue for a long time now, with reference to members who have PMd us with suggestions and concerns. If you feel there is a more appropriate age limit, then please PM a mod and let us know. If you have a query or are over 30 and want to attend an event, feel free to PM a CCC-mod.

For clarification.

Riven_ wrote:: The Christchurch Cosplay Club was formed to be a fun group run by young people who cosplay for young people who cosplay. We never thought it would grow to become as big as it has, nor were we expecting the issues which would arise from it. The reason for this rule which is in place only on official CCC events is that members who the group was created for feel uncomfortable at events which are being run with them in mind.

I will say it again. All other non-CCC events are not bound by this rule, nor do we wish them to be. We, those who are in charge of CCC events and who set up the club in the first place have put in a rule which we feel helps the CCC to be what we created it to be. Nothing more, nothing less.

Here are all the responses to questions which have been asked me. PLEASE read them as your question just might be answered here. If it isn't and you would like answers/to post in the thread just PM me.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

By Snow. 15/08/10, 11:45 am

Are you implying in 9 years time I'm going to be untrustworthy with children?
I'm sorry but I don't think this is a fair way to address issues of teens feeling unsafe. You'd think their parents would be glad of some adult supervision. Maybe there could be events for older people too, so that they don't have to miss out because somebody's feeling a little insecure today?
Cosplay is supposed be fun for everyone.

By LintuwolfWiing. 15/08/10, 12:11 pm

@snow It's not inplace because older people are untrustworthy with children, I mean it's the older peope that have kids. It's inplace because many of the older people arn't supervising, they're just atending the clubs events. Which many parents of the younger members do not aprove of.
The over 30's can still make and go to events, just not the main events.
Most clubs that exist have age limits, to stop parents from not letting their off spring attend events because people much older then them are attending.

Shawn

By **Riven_**. 15/08/10, 12:16 pm

We're not implying that at all ~~otherwise I'd be unsafe too XD~~. And like we said in the first post, this isn't a knee-jerk reaction. We've been talking about issues like this for over a year, with input from many members of the club at various times.

There will be events for everyone to come to. If they would like to come to an event with an age limit, they can PM the organiser and see if exceptions can be made.

By Snow. 15/08/10, 01:08 pm

Yeah I understand, there's probably not a lot of choice. It just seems
pretty meh that things will be more difficult on people in future who have been
around for so long, in favour of new people who need parents permission.

But yes, thank you for responding to my concerns thoughtfully haha xD
Lol'd at:

Riven_ wrote:: We're not implying that at all ~~otherwise I'd be unsafe too XD~~.

By Highlander. 15/08/10, 01:22 pm

Riven_ wrote:: We're not implying that at all ~~otherwise I'd be unsafe too XD~~. And like we said in the first post, this isn't a knee-jerk reaction. We've been talking about issues like this for over a year, with input from many members of the club at various times.

There will be events for everyone to come to. If they would like to come to an event with an age limit, they can PM the organiser and see if exceptions can be made.

So the point of this is that people are uncomfortable that we are there. And so you are going to ban us from the club.
But you are still going to organize official events that we can come to despite being banned? But you are going to rely on us to PM you. Which makes no sense, since you are saying that people are uncomfortable, so if you say yes then you make people uncomfortable? Unless you plan on making exemption for particular people, and not others. And who wants to beg to go where they are not welcome. Sorry but you guys had to know that when you made the rule.

Sorry I think your reply is confusing, and contradicts the first post.

As another issue, as I have raised with Aura, apart from the ball, what type of event do you actually offer to older people. I have just confirmed tonight several names of people 18+ that are deliberately not going to the ball. And I think they are also some of the many people you must have noticed rarely if ever come anyway. Because they are not catered for.

Maybe a better approach rather than turfing people out is to have older and younger events. The older ones possibly less frequent. But up till now the CCC/CNZ line is that these forums and the CCC events have to be PG-13. Now you are reaping the results of having every event fits all ages! And CNZ has been asked multiple times to reconsider this one age fits all model and allow sub-forums for older people. But the mods have stuck to there guns about the all inclusive PG-13 rule.

Now I know the CCC is a separate entity from CNZ, and will do whatever seems right for it. But then discriminating against over 30's is against the spirit if not the rule of CNZ PG-13. And the CCC is on CNZ. So now it has got to be a lot harder for the mods to say no to an over 18 section, some of their own arguments just being disregarded. (Posts in which would still have to conform to the PG-13 rule.) I mean it can not be more discriminatory than the under 30 section.

The up side is that you may get a reasonable amount of people that are just sick of the drama, politics and every event largely being the same, regardless of theme, and targeted at 13 year olds, will actually cosplay outside of Geddon. And what is the CCC or CNZ there for apart from promoting cosplay? Are they going to act against that?

I know you will then say that it's only official events. Private events are fine. But then if you are concerned at responsible adults at a supervised event then surely the same teens/parents are going to be concerned about people at unsupervised events. So its kinda rough on me and the poor teen organizing an event to have to negotiate this. Especially since it involves a whole bunch of guests who may not be happy if they let me come, or unhappy if they stop me. And even then it's only certain types of events we would be asking to come to anyway. The most appropriate ones are the official monthly ones.

Anyway you look at it, if you organise all events as 30 under, without putting any effort into 18+ events you are being discriminatory and creating an uneven playing field. Wouldn't creating some alternative for older people be more positive than banning them and letting them fend for themselves. A lot of people just fall off the radar that way.

Side note: As the CCC are the only group that has an organised club section, and the only one that makes an age discrimination it is the only one which need an over 18 section IMO.

And Shawn, I would expect at a model rail club, or in my case when I was young, a wargaming group then yes the kids and adults attend the same activities. Don't quote me on the model railway club, btw. But I think they exist. If I was 13 and wanted to join the Christchurch wargaming club I would not expect a underage group any more than me joining the CCC has any right to have expected a overage group. Not that I knew the age group when I joined, but I did expect to be a little older than most. Just not for 13 year olds to have the money or inclination to cosplay. Also course I'm happy to supervise, but you guys seem to have that covered. And what would that change anyway. How much supervision do they need?

Since there is only two of us(?) that are affected anyway, and you will still be allowing all the way up to 30, which is still old as far as 13 year olds are concerned, I would have though asking the parents to meet us first would have been a worthwhile attempt. I mean how many other older people who want to cosplay, and are willing to hang around boisterous teens would you expect to join.

**Guest** Guest

Highlander wrote:: [

Anyway you look at it, if you organise all events as 30 under, without putting any effort into 18+ events you are being discriminatory and creating an uneven playing field. Wouldn't creating some alternative for older people be more positive than banning them and letting them fend for themselves. A lot of people just fall off the radar that way.
.

I kind of agree with Highlander here. It doesn't seem to give the over 29's a chance. Plus Kitten Slave from up north, isn't he 30 ? The north island isn't banning him from events. It seems kind of age discriminating.

But then again I see that younger members could feel uncomfortable or awkward hanging around much older members. But I think this is only fair on only one side of the fence and not the other. Wouldn't a under eighteen group only, where the twelve and fourteen year olds who might feel uncomfortable among the older be less discriminating and not exclude the older members at the same time ?

Plus it seems kind of strange being told that there is no age limit on things and then all of a sudden, there is one. ??

Under 17 events only and 18 above events could be a little more fair on the older cosplayers, people are still being excluded but isn't it more fair than just saying" You're old and therefore a pedophile, goodbye ?"

Not to be mean to you Riven and Shawn, but it says like you're saying that over 29's are all pedophiles within clubs and organizations. Which is harsh on somebody like Highlander, who speaks here and attends our events frequently.

Plus if the teen dresses up as Yoko or Black rock shooter then the older members who are staring shouldn't be in the blame. If you dress provoking in anything, you're asking for uncomfortable attention. I just think that's it's a little unfair on the oldies, when young cosplayers dress in bra's only and then complain that they are being started at by older anime fans. CCC should be for one to hundred year olds, just because you're not eighteen anymore doesn't mean that you are going to start flirting over the young in a crude manner, it seems kind of well age-racist.

By Lavi_x. 15/08/10, 02:31 pm

What confuses me is why you guys think that parents would be okay with 18-29 year olds if they aren't okay with 30 year olds. Or do people suddenly turn evil on their 30th birthday?

By Pura. 15/08/10, 02:35 pm

Wouldn't a more realistic age ban be 20? Most parents of 13 year olds would be concerned if their kid was hanging out with 20-30 year olds, and 19 and under is a teenager still.

By **JVCA**. 15/08/10, 02:37 pm

Lavi and Wookster, your posts have been deleted as they did not add to the discussion and only sought to inflame the situation.

If you would like to repost your points in a manner that is constructive, please feel free; otherwise, we do not tolerate antagonistic commentary on these forums. [Having been ninja'd since making this post, I would like to say that your more recent post is a more appropriate way of expressing your concerns Lavi, and it was the former post I was referring to.]

I am not a mod of the CCC, though I have seen a small fraction of the behind the scenes discussion and a few of the messages from those concerned. I will tell you that it is not out of the blue, and it has been in discussion for a long time - but my presence in this thread is only to keep the peace. As a non-CCC organiser, I will not answer anyone's points as it is not my place to say, so please do not expect me to contribute more than keeping people in line as an unbiased third party.

By Pura. 15/08/10, 02:41 pm

@Jess - What most people are getting at it being sudden is that it ISN'T sudden to the mods who decided it, but it is to the normal every day people, so really, it is pretty sudden. I think an appropriate thread discussing it would have been better than a simple "ban and this is final without talk" kind of thing.

By **Rowan**. 15/08/10, 02:47 pm

I'm not involved in the CCC, but I am involved in the Auckland cosplay scene.

Regarding Kitten, Auckland doesn't have a cosplay club. All our events are just casual outings proposed by a member where anyone can chose to come, and half the time we break off into different groups. As Riven has said in the original post, "This rule is in effect of all Club events. For events that are run by other members (in the Christchurch Cosplayers forum) the age limit will be set by the organiser, so please respect and abide by the rules they put in place." Therefore the club situtation in Christchurch is different from the situation in Auckland.

Clubs often have age rules, so this isn't unreasonable. Members over 30 have not been banned from interacting with the entire cosplay scene, it's just that the club would prefer to have an age limit. And even then the club organisers can be PM'd to negotiate. It's NOT only directed at any particular person, but as Riven_ has said, it's a blanket rule that they have put in place for the future of the club, and any issues there may be in the future if they hadn't enacted this rule. It gives the club a kind of security to be able to fall back on an already standing rule if any issues do arise.

If anyone would like to raise the idea of having seperate older events, it would be good to PM a CCC mod so they can give your idea due consideration.

By **JVCA**. 15/08/10, 02:48 pm

@Pura:

JVCA wrote:: As a non-CCC organiser, I will not answer anyone's points as it is not my place to say, so please do not expect me to contribute more than keeping people in line as an unbiased third party.

As someone who was only superficially involved in making the decision, there is no point in directing discussion points towards me.

By Pura. 15/08/10, 02:51 pm

JVCA wrote:

@Pura:

JVCA wrote:: As a non-CCC organiser, I will not answer anyone's points as it is not my place to say, so please do not expect me to contribute more than keeping people in line as an unbiased third party.

As someone who was only superficially involved in making the decision, there is no point in directing discussion points towards me.

Well, Riven_ said it too, I was directing it at you because you posted about it most recently.

**Guest** Guest

Riven_ wrote:: This rule is in effect of all Club events. For events that are run by other members (in the Christchurch Cosplayers forum) the age limit will be set by the organiser, so please respect and abide by the rules they put in place. If you have a query, feel free to take it up with the organiser directly.

Reading this paragraph it sounds like it's up to the organizer's personal preference. So does this mean that over 30's can be still included within a event if the main organizer souly chooses to include them into the party ? It sounds like teen's have a right but the oldies don't. I mean if the over 29's choose to have no under twenty's at their event, the tweens would complain and would have a massive uproar because it's not including them into the event because of age. I don't think that age should be the issue here, it's actions and personality. If you take the action to make a member at any age feel uncomfortable then that person should be mod talked with and banned on a personal level rather than age. If CCC members feel awkward about Highlander it should be spoke with Riven or Jess on a personal level, not his age. A thirteen year old could still physically abuse a eleven year old, why should people over 30 be the main target ? If a person at any age does something wrong, it should be judged by the wrong action he or she took. Not the person's age.

By Kitten Slave. 15/08/10, 02:54 pm

I think that this whole "banning", age limit idea might be a bit over the top.
I mean, as you seem to operate as a "club" you are all technically part of the club.
Why not simply have events that may or may not have a age range?

Much like most clubs or public party events in aucks sometimes do - under 18 style events etc?
This is not to say that 18+ is suddenly bad and excluded, but lets face it, I can understand that if you have a group of 15 thirteen year old girls going to a party/event/someones house, they or their parents might feel slightly weird if there are going to be a bunch of 22, 25, 30 (etc) + males around.
Same goes for alcohol etc, hence the whole pg13 thing. That way everyone can enjoy the event. Honestly, if you are 18+ and cant enjoy the event without alcohol, then you have other issues anyway.
But really, the older gaiz are also gonna have to accept that it might not be the best idea for them to hit up all events either. Its not like everyone hates you all of a sudden.
One could also say that the younger members are going to have to accept that they will sometimes be excluded from the older folks events, say 18+ events.

All said and done, if the aucklanders decided they wanted to ban me, then fine, that is their choice, and I would abide by it for their comfort. I hope they wouldnt as I acutally enjoy their company, and I try and get along with everyone, but who knows, maybeh I do rub some ppl wrong. They all know that if I piss them off, they are welcome to send me a pm and sort it out.

You gaiz have kinda blown this out of proportion event.

Simple solution:
The event organizer sets a comfortable age range that they would like on their event. Its their event, so thats their right.
Some of these organizers Im chure will have events that everyone is open to.

This way, everyone is catered for.
Be calm people.

nodnod

edit: lol, I see some pruning has taken place since my posting.

By Highlander. 15/08/10, 02:56 pm

Sorry to disagree JVCA. But I think Lavi X just said it was about me. While I appreciate the mods being more neutral about this, there are only two over 30's who go to the CCC really. So unless anyone has a problem with ****, it's me. Cause I'm a male? Thats hardly a secret. Neither is it that people have complained about me.

Also to quote you directly.

b) These are forums about cosplay, not about meet-ups. We do have meet-up sections, but these are designed for cosplay meet-ups for any age. If someone has been abusing that, please report it.
c) Exclusion and discrimination is a form of bullying; and that's what ageism is. An R18 forum would exclude a vast amount of this forum's population.

Thats why I said that while the CCC is within it's rights to do this, it is a against CNZ policy. Your words not mine! An under 30 forum would exclude quite a few people in 5 years time. And as long as the CCC is on CNZ?

I know it may be inevitable the CCC does something. I have suggested something else, and it seems to have some support. Lets see where this goes? Trying to avoid a split(s) in the cosplay world in ChCh.

Also agree wouldn't an age of 25 or so make a lot more sense? That is if the goal is to keep older people away. As said, is a 13 yo. going to be more comfortable with a 29 year old than a 30 something?

PS. People please post, even if it is just a for or against. It's am important descion. I'm not going to hold this against anybody. I am a bit old for that sort of stuff.

By **Riven_**. 15/08/10, 03:02 pm

Highlander wrote:: Sorry I think your reply is confusing, and contradicts the first post.

Sorry, what I meant was regarding user-run events and meet ups will have their own age limits, and there will still be the option of PM-ing whoever is in charge of an event to see how flexible they are on the age limit they've set. This rule ONLY applies to the CCC events.

Private events vs CCC ones?
Whoever organises each event is 'in charge' of the safety/etc. If it's not an official meet, neither I, Ange or any of the other CCC mods have any responsibility for what goes on there. We do, however, feel that we have some responsibility towards the CCC events. The age rule is up to the organiser, all that they are limited by is the pg-13 nature of the CNZ forums itself.

18+ events?
CCC was not formed with 18+ events in mind, and therefore none will be run by us. Once again, if you wish to run one, feel free to organise it over the PM system.

RE: the age 30?
There's no significant reason for the age. We needed a nice round number, and so we went with it The reason we didn't just put an age limit on at the start? We didn't think we'd need one. Being young and foolish, Ange and I took up the idea of the CCC and went THIS COULD BE FUN. Two years later we're here and doing the best we can.

The Christchurch Cosplay Club was formed to be a fun group run by young people who cosplay for young people who cosplay. We never thought it would grow to become as big as it has, nor were we expecting the issues which would arise from it. The reason for this rule which is in place only on official CCC events is that members who the group was created for feel uncomfortable at events which are being run with them in mind.

I will say it again. All other non-CCC events are not bound by this rule, nor do we wish them to be. We, those who are in charge of CCC events and who set up the club in the first place have put in a rule which we feel helps the CCC to be what we created it to be. Nothing more, nothing less.

By **JVCA**. 15/08/10, 03:06 pm

@Highlander: CCC ≠ CNZ.

CNZ cannot hold any responsibility over what happens in a real life setting.

The CCC is a real life thing; CNZ is a place on the internet.

Highlander, I can state for a fact that this was not just about you. If it was just about you, they would have spoken to you directly, so please stop making assumptions and putting words into their mouths; it is unfair of you to do so, just as it was unfair of Lavi to do so (hence why I deleted his post).

By Wookster. 15/08/10, 03:09 pm

Perhaps most didnt read between the lines and just saw it to inflame the situation, my point was that as soon as anyone turns 30 does that make them imediately banned/bad people? That was pretty much it. It discrimination and leaving people out because of something that they cannot control.

By **JVCA**. 15/08/10, 03:10 pm

That is a more appropriate expression of your concerns; thank you. Smile

By **Riven_**. 15/08/10, 03:14 pm

@Wookster- it is a random and unrelated number because we realised that we needed to put a number on it. Realistically it would have been there from when the club was made, but we CCC mods are young and foolish and didn't realise we'd need one.

By Mandie_Chan. 15/08/10, 03:16 pm

so... I have re-written this post a million and one times.

1) I have talked with MANY a parent in the CCC club. This is a huge concern for them with older people being there. At the same time they are also glad there are a few 20 year olds in the mix to keep things in line (one even asked me how old I was and TRIPLE CHECKED that there were 2 people in their 20's there).

2) Events need organizers. Organizers need time and events need people to attend. If the event being organized doesn't follow CCC rules it cannot be labeled as a 'CCC' event.

3) People in CCC will age. New members will join. Members will lose interest/move away/other. Either way we don't know what will happen to this club in the future, Meanwhile I think it is right that we worry about the 'now' for the club because we do need to make a change when many people are voicing the same concerns.

**Guest** Guest

Highlander wrote:: c) Exclusion and discrimination is a form of bullying; and that's what ageism is. An R18 forum would exclude a vast amount of this forum's population.

Kitten Slave wrote:: Much like most clubs or public party events in aucks sometimes do - under 18 style events etc?
This is not to say that 18+ is suddenly bad and excluded, but lets face it, I can understand that if you have a group of 15 thirteen year old girls going to a party/event/someones house, they or their parents might feel slightly weird if there are going to be a bunch of 22, 25, 30 (etc) + males around.

I agree with the ageism point Highlander, but what Kitten Slave said is really realistic to the issue. A parent might feel uncomfortable if their twelve year old is hanging around older males and females above the 30's. It's slightly ageist but parents can sometimes see a certain age gap among their child, concerning.

Quote :: Thats why I said that while the CCC is within it's rights to do this, it is a against CNZ policy. Your words not mine! An under 30 forum would exclude quite a few people in 5 years time.

The whole forum isn't turning under 29's only, CNZ is still going to be free to experience for any age group.

Quote :: I know it may be inevitable the CCC does something. I have suggested something else, and it seems to have some support. Lets see where this goes? Trying to avoid a split(s) in the cosplay world in ChCh.

It's not really spitting up CCC completely. From what Kitten Slave has explained it just sounds like a optional choice to the organizer, so really if the thirteen or fourteen year old organizer doesn't mind much older cosplayers around, you and others can still be included into the event.

@ Kitten Slave. Thanks for clearing things up, the issue seems a little more clear now.

By Saiyajin Mui. 15/08/10, 03:23 pm

Although I'm not a member of CCC, as the vice-president of the Ashburton Anime Association I'd also like to add my two cents into this discussion.

Being a group where we (as an entire group) decided the youngest age for joining would be 16 due to the ratings of the stuff we watch as well as the fact that a lot of parents in Ashburton overreact when it comes to this sort of stuff, I can sort of understand how the age of a person can raise concern within a group. However I don't really see what could be so bad having people over 30 at events to the point that there would be a cut-off age introduced. Our group has two people over 30 and it's never really raised any flags with the other members or their parents.

The main benefits that I see in a person over 30 years being at an event is that there would a responsible adult to supervise the event, act as a mediator in case of any issues being cropped up or to provide additional help to the event organizers/supervisors. They can also act as transport if members need to be home early or if the group(s) at the event(s) decide to go elsewhere. Let's also remember these guys enjoy anime/cosplaying/gaming just as much as you do. The only difference is that they're older.

Of course if any parents have issues with their son/daughter attending events where people of that age range are present, then I would suggest maybe inviting the parent to the event to show that these people can be trusted and that as well as there being people over 30 at the event, there are a lot more people of their age range there too.

Of course as I said at the start, I'm not a member of CCC, it's not the view that A3 as a whole group shares either. This is my personal opinion and in conclusion, I guess it's really up to the organizer to decide what goes. Whatever decision you folks make I'll respect and keep in mind whenever we go up to them.

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