final fantasy xiii mafia [n3]

By creature124. 17/05/11, 08:06 am

Let me spell it out then.

Framer, Bus Driver, Roleblocker...these are the three most common roles which make it a very bad idea for power roles to announce their intentions before the night phase. The first two aren't very likely to show up in this game, since the setup is so vanilla, but if the mafia have one power, it will almost certainly be roleblocker. It is the only common mafia role that I would consider 'vanilla'.

If Peter announces his target, the mafia will know if they are at risk tonight. Therefore, if they have a roleblock or some other manipulation role, they will know if they are at risk, or if their action is better spent attempting to identify other power roles.

In the hamtaro mafia, I was a bus driver. The town announcing their targets won the game for me. hands down, easy, 10/10, A+, play win again. As I don't expect the more oddball roles to be in the game, this is not as big a risk as it might otherwise be, but it is likely the mafia have 1 power role, and target calling feeds them information. Do not do it.

Feel free to disagree, I guess. But I hold strongly that the town does NOT discuss the target of it's NAs, ever, and find PP extremely suspicious for suggesting it.

By Phlaming Phoenix-. 17/05/11, 08:35 am

@RMD:
Yes his action will go through, but the information shown will not be player specific.
We will get generic 'Cop found Scum' or 'Cop found Town' type information (once it is deciphered by theme literates of course). This will tell us nothing unless Peyer tells us who he targeted, which he cannot do if he is dead.
If he dies in the night, I want to make sure we actually get something out of it, which we can assure by him telling us who he will target in the day phase now.

@Creature: If the game is as vanilla as you say, and there will be either a doc OR a cop, then I very much doubt that the mafia will have a power role anything more than the NK and the Godfather's immunity to investigation.
Whether or not Peyer hits scum it is still information. 1 Confirmed townie means one less person who we choose from to lynch.

Bottom Line: If Peyer survives the night phase I will be incredibly surprised. If this game is as basic as you say, and we have a confirmed cop, this means the likelyhood is no doc. With no doc, a mafia would be fools not to kill a claimed cop.

Peyer, you have come this far and outed yourself as cop. I, and the rest of the town Iam sure, would really appreciate it if you could at least do this for us as our only power role.
Trying to cut our losses here people.

As for you finding me suspicious for suggesting this, I am not the only one who thinks it may be a decent idea. And in this case, we only have one NA. We need to use it to maximum advantage. I do not think we should discuss the target at all, I simply think Peyer should pick someone, and tell us who. No arguing, no discussing, no influencing of the choice. Just a straight out 'I am targeting XXXXX'. Thats it.

By Zeorymer. 17/05/11, 09:07 am

Both sides are now using False Dilemmas. Tee hee hee.

By Phlaming Phoenix-. 17/05/11, 09:12 am

Sorry, too much digital electronics I guess. My mind only works in 1's and 0's.
But please, do add your thoughts?

By creature124. 17/05/11, 09:31 am

Phlaming Phoenix- wrote:: @Creature: If the game is as vanilla as you say, and there will be either a doc OR a cop, then I very much doubt that the mafia will have a power role anything more than the NK and the Godfather's immunity to investigation.
Whether or not Peyer hits scum it is still information. 1 Confirmed townie means one less person who we choose from to lynch.

Bottom Line: If Peyer survives the night phase I will be incredibly surprised. If this game is as basic as you say, and we have a confirmed cop, this means the likelyhood is no doc. With no doc, a mafia would be fools not to kill a claimed cop.

Peyer, you have come this far and outed yourself as cop. I, and the rest of the town Iam sure, would really appreciate it if you could at least do this for us as our only power role.
Trying to cut our losses here people.

As for you finding me suspicious for suggesting this, I am not the only one who thinks it may be a decent idea. And in this case, we only have one NA. We need to use it to maximum advantage. I do not think we should discuss the target at all, I simply think Peyer should pick someone, and tell us who. No arguing, no discussing, no influencing of the choice. Just a straight out 'I am targeting XXXXX'. Thats it.

We don't know just how vanilla the game is. I say there will be either a cop OR a doc....UNLESS there is also a roleblocker. This is also a standard vanilla setup. Or maybe sgb isn't as good a mod as he should be, and there are both with no mafia countermeasure. My point is that WE DO NOT KNOW. In a situation like this, I prefer to stick to general best practices - and the best practice here is NOT to call targets.

Also 'The majority seems to agree with me' isn't an argument. I find you suspicious for suggesting it, but I'm less inclined to find others suspicious for not realizing just how bad the idea is (except for maybe Alex, he should know better).

If we are gonna do this, yes, we do it that way. I still strongly suggest against it.

@Zeo: Just because we are only discussing two major possibilities does not mean we are ignoring other possibilities. I am aware they exist, but I am using the most convenient example. There are too many to succinctly discuss, so while the false dilemma may be present, it is not necessarily damaging to either of our arguments, imho.

By Zeorymer. 17/05/11, 09:47 am

creature124 wrote:: Also 'The majority seems to agree with me' isn't an argument. I find you suspicious for suggesting it, but I'm less inclined to find others suspicious for not realizing just how bad the idea is (except for maybe Alex, he should know better).

Tsk tsk Greg, you should know better than to say something like this. It's neither an argument nor something PP said. It's very different to "I am not the only one who believes this" and it's meant to support his conclusion.

By Phlaming Phoenix-. 17/05/11, 11:02 am

What Zeo said.

Yes, it is true that we do not know. In this game we know nothing until the mod confirms it. However, the most probable turn of events points to the death of our cop this night phase. Do you disagree with that?

I see no difference in Peyer telling us his target before the night phase, and telling us after.
The thing that makes you think this is a bad idea is that they might roleblock him? yes?
If they do not kill him, they are going to roleblock him anyway. If they kill him, we lose him, and any information he gained is lost with him. Either way we get no information. This way at least we get some information.

If you have a solid reason why him announcing(Note: I did say discussing) his target is a bad idea, please do share. I do not mean to sound condescending or rude, I simply do not see why it is a bad idea in such a simple set-up game.

By Peterofl. 17/05/11, 11:27 am

Umm, if I say "I'm going to cop Greg", and he turns out to be town, the mafia will just kill him (because they know I'll 95% be doctored), and it will be a waste of an investigation.

By Li-Bai. 17/05/11, 12:48 pm

INTENSE POSTS C-C-C-COMBO BREAKERRRRR

just a note I will be super busy so unable to post much this coming week or so (even less than I already have?)

By creature124. 17/05/11, 02:23 pm

Zeorymer wrote:

creature124 wrote:: Also 'The majority seems to agree with me' isn't an argument. I find you suspicious for suggesting it, but I'm less inclined to find others suspicious for not realizing just how bad the idea is (except for maybe Alex, he should know better).

Tsk tsk Greg, you should know better than to say something like this. It's neither an argument nor something PP said. It's very different to "I am not the only one who believes this" and it's meant to support his conclusion.

Yeah, because more than one person believing something makes it more correct or valid, right? How does additional people, some of who may be in collusion with him, support his conclusion at all?

Phlaming Phoenix- wrote:: What Zeo said.

Yes, it is true that we do not know. In this game we know nothing until the mod confirms it. However, the most probable turn of events points to the death of our cop this night phase. Do you disagree with that?

I see no difference in Peyer telling us his target before the night phase, and telling us after.
The thing that makes you think this is a bad idea is that they might roleblock him? yes?
If they do not kill him, they are going to roleblock him anyway. If they kill him, we lose him, and any information he gained is lost with him. Either way we get no information. This way at least we get some information.

If you have a solid reason why him announcing(Note: I did say discussing) his target is a bad idea, please do share. I do not mean to sound condescending or rude, I simply do not see why it is a bad idea in such a simple set-up game.

Thank you for maintaining a level head - I always have trouble with that during a discussion like this. let me try to illuminae my thought process;

If Peter's target is unknown;
Roleblocker present - mafia assumes Peter will be doctored, he is blocked. We gain nothing.
Roelblocker not present - mafia kills Peter. We gain nothing.

...at this point in drafting the post, I started drafting out Peter's known target possibilities. It very quickly became a twisted mess, so I've deleted it from my final post. BUT. There will a couple of scenarios that there was a slim chance of gaining info - for example, peter targeting a townie and the mafia not killing it due to WIFOM doctor fear, or peter picking scum and the story revealing such.

Okay, so hold tight, because this is a doozy. I was wrong. Ouch. That hurt. Now, if we are not assuming a vanilla setup, this ALL goes out the window (basically, I am saying this is a special case, so do NOT use it as a precedent in the future), but in this case, we can ignore best practice and have peter call his target.

So yeah. peter, do it. Imo, you should call your target.

Unvote: PP

By Peterofl. 17/05/11, 02:33 pm

It's my role, I choose not to. My vote stays on PP.

idc if the rest of the town decides to vote off rengen, but I'm far more sus of PP and another who I'm not going to name.

By Zeorymer. 17/05/11, 02:58 pm

creature124 wrote:

Zeorymer wrote:

creature124 wrote:: Also 'The majority seems to agree with me' isn't an argument. I find you suspicious for suggesting it, but I'm less inclined to find others suspicious for not realizing just how bad the idea is (except for maybe Alex, he should know better).

Tsk tsk Greg, you should know better than to say something like this. It's neither an argument nor something PP said. It's very different to "I am not the only one who believes this" and it's meant to support his conclusion.

Yeah, because more than one person believing something makes it more correct or valid, right? How does additional people, some of who may be in collusion with him, support his conclusion at all?

No dude, I mean you took something PP said, changed it into something weaker, and then attacked him for it. Strawman, thought you would remember it. You have plenty of valid points without having to resort to that.

By creature124. 17/05/11, 03:01 pm

Well, I guess it is ultimately your decision. And my guts still tells me you are right, despite the logic saying otherwise. I'm not much fussed by this.

I'd also like to note that I'm not replacing my vote on rengen, and explain it: I placed it mostly to move the game along, but now the game is moving at a pretty decent nip, so I don't see it as nessecary. Besides, now I have a logic-intuition conflict to work out.

@Zeo I don't always think through every single point in that kind of detail when I get incensed, you know that by now. I saw him making what I saw as a weak point, so at the time I saw it as pointing out that weakness. You are correct, though - there is a strawman there, and...I'm sorry? idk what you want from me

By Zeorymer. 17/05/11, 03:04 pm

creature124 wrote:: and...I'm sorry? idk what you want from me

~~YOUR SOUL~~ Na, I'm k. Just checking you didn't plan it it eh o_^

By Phlaming Phoenix-. 17/05/11, 03:20 pm

@Peyer:
Instead of just voting and being stubborn, why not explain what you are suspicious of exactly?
Then we can deal with it and move on. The time for subtlety came and went. You blew threw it like a freight train painted bright red.

@Creature: Your welcome, and thank you.

By Selphiroth. 17/05/11, 03:41 pm

Not suggesting that this is the case with this game of course, but in a basic game would it be correct to assume that in CNZ it works much like the other boards, such as the town tend to have a doctor, a cop, both or neither, while the Mafia would likely to have a roleblocker or none?

If we are going along that line, yes I'm following Greg's logic.

By RainbowMoonDust. 17/05/11, 04:06 pm

Quote :: If Peter's target is unknown;
Roleblocker present - mafia assumes Peter will be doctored, he is blocked. We gain nothing.
Roelblocker not present - mafia kills Peter. We gain nothing.

...at this point in drafting the post, I started drafting out Peter's known target possibilities. It very quickly became a twisted mess, so I've deleted it from my final post. BUT. There will a couple of scenarios that there was a slim chance of gaining info - for example, peter targeting a townie and the mafia not killing it due to WIFOM doctor fear, or peter picking scum and the story revealing such.

Even if Peter reveals his target either of those two things could happen anyway as well as other possible scenarios of which Greg mentioned, whatever he does should be up to him, I for one am against him revealing his target. I just never ever think it's a good idea in any situation. nono

By Selphiroth. 18/05/11, 04:48 am

Really basic questions time. This is something that I suspect CNZ Mafia has a different mechanism to the other ones I played so someone please enlighten me.

1. We are at Day 1 with no night phase yet. So how did the claimed cop managed to have his first investigation already? As most of the other places (Mafiascum, Epicmafia) would require at least one night phase. In Mafiascum this scenario is simply not possible. Day one, cops knew nothing. Epicmafia starts with a night phase. So how does CNZ work?

2. The dead do not talk. Assume that cop is killed tonight, it doesn't matter if we were told who he's targeting. We are not going to find out the result anyway, and we can't even say he was killed for his specific target because, well, he claimed cop.

By Phlaming Phoenix-. 18/05/11, 06:55 am

@RMD:
The point of the whole thing is that Peyer is doomed. The reason for stating his target is so that WHEN(notice this is not an if) he dies, we still gain something. In this game the situation is certainly abnormal. If you have a solid reason it is a bad idea(that hasn't already been addressed) please do say so. If it is just a general precedent, please re consider the situation.

@Selphiroth:
1. Peyer has not had an investigation. He simply said he knew things because he was convinced by their behaviour. At least this is the impression I get, it would be impossible for him to have any mod-confirmed information at this stage.

2. The night story should give us an indication of whether the result was positive(town) or negative(scum) without giving player specific info. This is why if we reveal the player beign targeted beforehand, the information effectively becomes public from the night story rather than needing the cop alive to tell us the result.

By Peterofl. 18/05/11, 06:56 am

Can I just say that discussing whether I announce who I am going to investigate is IRRELEVANT, because I'm NOT GOING TO DO IT.

Thanks.

ps. pretty sure PP and Greg are mafia together but oh well.

By commandercandyfloss. 18/05/11, 10:56 am

Wow. That was a lot to read through.
Sorry for not posting until now, I had a history assessment I desperately had to finish. I'm not really sure what to add, things I would say from any said have been said in much better words than I could put myself.
So I'm going to sit here uselessly and say I have no freaking clue who I suspect.

By Phlaming Phoenix-. 18/05/11, 11:34 am

Peyer are you even reading the thread?
I will ask again, do you have any actual reasons for being suspicious and making a huge claim that I am mafia with creature?
Also, why will you not co operate? You have come this far in revealing information, why not do this step which is actual helpful.

@Rengen: You are but a couple votes off of being lynched. Do you have a defense of any sort?
And as for the announcing target issue, where do you stand?

By Peterofl. 18/05/11, 11:36 am

Fine.

I'm investigating Rengen.

By commandercandyfloss. 18/05/11, 11:37 am

Defense? I'm tired and I'm not really sure how to defend myself against my playstyle.
Do you want a claim, or something? It's about all I can do at this point (despite how much I despise claiming), isn't it? :\

And if I get lynched, Peter?

By Peterofl. 18/05/11, 11:38 am

If you get lynched then I will change my mind.

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